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Post by piaggiolegalrep on Jul 11, 2013 16:52:52 GMT -5
Hello. Our law firm, B. Gray Gibbs PA, recently was retained by the owner of an undivided one-sixteenth interest in Piaggio P180 serial number 395. This letter, which is not a solicitation for business but a message on behalf of our client, is addressed to the remaining 15 owners of the aircraft.
Because each of your ownership interests is an undivided one-sixteenth (or multiple thereof), every owner must agree before a course of action can be taken to ensure your airplane is managed properly going forward. As you can imagine, this is a difficult process, so groups of this type typically create an organization in which the owners entrust management to a few individuals. Our proposal is to create a Florida-based LLC to which each owner of an undivided one-sixteenth interest in Piaggio P180 serial number 395 transfers ownership in return for a one-sixteenth interest in the new corporation. (A transaction, incidentally, which will be a non-taxable event.)
After the aircraft is transferred to the LLC, you and the other owners of the corporation will have the opportunity to elect officers to manage the new entity, and management can determine how best to deal with the aircraft.
What are your options at that point? As you are probably aware, Avantair has floated a proposal where it continues to stay in business with the help of a large special assessment from each of its owners. The company will then proceed as before, with several provisions: your monthly fees will go up, and the coverage area provided will shrink. Still, considering the company’s existing operating concerns and debt, we do not believe this is a viable option.
If you agree to consolidate your interests into an LLC, you can then consider third-party management services of another type. In the interest of full disclosure, you should be aware the head of our firm is owner of aircraft management company Elite Air. However, please understand that moving forward with the law firm’s proposal in no way obligates you to contract with Elite Air for management services.
Elite Air proposes to place your aircraft on its 135 certificate and manage it alongside its existing fleet, currently consisting of 13 airplanes. While the details of the arrangement would be negotiated between Elite Air and your new LLC’s management, we would be able to provide your existing services (50 hours of flight time in your aircraft or a substitute) at the same cost you are now paying, with an important caveat: budget overruns would be borne by you and your LLC. We believe this is critical to maintaining the viability of the arrangement going forward.
Again, the first step is to reach an agreement regarding the structure of your combined interest in Piaggio P180 serial number 395. We believe an LLC with centralized management is the best way forward. If you are interested in this proposal or have questions for me, please email gray@gibbslawgroup.com or call my law offices at 727-892-9901 at your earliest convenience.
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Post by piaggio on Jul 12, 2013 0:53:29 GMT -5
Ex-VNR owner that hired this law firm. Think long and hard before getting into bed with this operator. They are listed on the same FAA Blog, Quarterly Report of violations, along with Avantair. Sorry Guys, just looking out for our owners.
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Post by whatwouldherbdo on Jul 12, 2013 1:40:22 GMT -5
So Piaggio,
Tell us more about these blogs, violations, etc.
Thanks in advance for helping owners and employees avoid another VNR.
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Post by Scam on Jul 12, 2013 8:26:19 GMT -5
N395SS is Mr. Steve Santos personal aircraft (AKA) 17 air LLC Looks like Steve found his self a new business partner across the field from him. B. Gray Gibbs is the owner of Elite Air Hello. Our law firm, B. Gray Gibbs PA, recently was retained by the owner of an undivided one-sixteenth interest in Piaggio P180 serial number 395. This letter, which is not a solicitation for business but a message on behalf of our client, is addressed to the remaining 15 owners of the aircraft. Because each of your ownership interests is an undivided one-sixteenth (or multiple thereof), every owner must agree before a course of action can be taken to ensure your airplane is managed properly going forward. As you can imagine, this is a difficult process, so groups of this type typically create an organization in which the owners entrust management to a few individuals. Our proposal is to create a Florida-based LLC to which each owner of an undivided one-sixteenth interest in Piaggio P180 serial number 395 transfers ownership in return for a one-sixteenth interest in the new corporation. (A transaction, incidentally, which will be a non-taxable event.) After the aircraft is transferred to the LLC, you and the other owners of the corporation will have the opportunity to elect officers to manage the new entity, and management can determine how best to deal with the aircraft. What are your options at that point? As you are probably aware, Avantair has floated a proposal where it continues to stay in business with the help of a large special assessment from each of its owners. The company will then proceed as before, with several provisions: your monthly fees will go up, and the coverage area provided will shrink. Still, considering the company’s existing operating concerns and debt, we do not believe this is a viable option. If you agree to consolidate your interests into an LLC, you can then consider third-party management services of another type. In the interest of full disclosure, you should be aware the head of our firm is owner of aircraft management company Elite Air. However, please understand that moving forward with the law firm’s proposal in no way obligates you to contract with Elite Air for management services. Elite Air proposes to place your aircraft on its 135 certificate and manage it alongside its existing fleet, currently consisting of 13 airplanes. While the details of the arrangement would be negotiated between Elite Air and your new LLC’s management, we would be able to provide your existing services (50 hours of flight time in your aircraft or a substitute) at the same cost you are now paying, with an important caveat: budget overruns would be borne by you and your LLC. We believe this is critical to maintaining the viability of the arrangement going forward. Again, the first step is to reach an agreement regarding the structure of your combined interest in Piaggio P180 serial number 395. We believe an LLC with centralized management is the best way forward. If you are interested in this proposal or have questions for me, please email gray@gibbslawgroup.com or call my law offices at 727-892-9901 at your earliest convenience.
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merc
New Member
Posts: 16
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Post by merc on Jul 12, 2013 8:43:49 GMT -5
I would add that you folks who own aircraft, keep a few things in mind. The starting pay for Crews here at Avantair was dirt cheap compared to other carries. As time went on the pay was still well below the average for it's pilots. 7 years ago new pilots started at $25,ooo and after 3 years of employment a Captain was making in the $50,000 range. Guys coming in the door were seasoned veterans for the most part. While you were paying a premium to fly, it certainly was less expensive than many other carriers would charge for a comparable product. As you look towards other management firms keep this in mind. They will offer to manage your product but it in most cases won't be the world's most quailified Piaggio crews and here is why. They are going to do the same thing if not worse as Avantair did. They are going to be in the race to the bottom. Starting pay will be back in the $20,000 range. They will take eir present employees and place them in the left seat and whil having experience on Cessna 402's, King Air, etc. for all intensive purposes you will have new crews who have no experience on these aircraft because no self respecting pilot is going to fly this machine for those wages. We can all go get more stable jobs flying formthe regionals with a little better QOL and benefits. This is the situation with Skylimo in FXE. A handful of aircradaft will have to go through an entire process to be placed on that certificate, full training of all pilots and then the fun really begins. You get to fly with brand new guys on these aircraft. What hasn't been mentioned here much os the complicated operation of this paticular type of aircraft during takeoff and landing. It has a tendency to be more difficult to control because of the distance between the landing gear. Ever wonder why the plane gets a little squirly during take off or landing, that's why. Ever had a tire blow out on you while flying, well the plane doesn't have anti skid like most corporate aircraft....all technique ladies and gentlemen. This is a delicate machine that takes time to adjust to as a pilot. But I am sure that if you select a company that manages your plane who offers you a reasonable price to mange it, the guys up front are most likely being compensated well because they have experience in the plane. There is however some other slick "Attorney Firms" out there who are slimy and know all the ins and outs associated wih this niche ofmaviation who are all to glad to give you a little break on the management costs but rest assuredmwhen youmask the pilots thiese questions, "How many hours do you ahve flying the Piaggio, How much are you being paid, How many days a month do you have to work"
If the answers are; less than 500 hours in the plane Les than $40K for a First officer, less than $70K for a Captain More than 15 days a month
Then you have inexperienced folks and a company who, once again, cares only aboutma schedule and eir profit, not your best interest. But maybe his isn't fair of me to say that. It's you who knows the value factor of your family and loved ones. When you get a ride to the airport do you jump into the cheapest looking cab with a sketchy looking driver, no, you get a proper car and driver. Keep in mind these folks will have your very life in their hands. They will be flying you in and out of Aspen, Teluride, Ocean Reef and all of those othe fun places that we like to call "Special Airports." last thought, you get what you pay for. You weremfortunate to have guys who stuck around as the market was hard for pilots to find work. That is rapidly changing folks and the revolving door is getting ready to start spinning. There are guys who love this type of flying but they will pursue the better paying jobs. The guys who stick around will be the experienced guys who get renumerated fairly. I might suggest on behalf of those guys if I may that when you agree to have your plane(s) managemed by some other firm, make stipulations that they are guys that you want to bring with you or at least experienced guys with minimum standards. At least 1000 hours time in type and minimum pay as stated. Just my thoughts. Good luck and do your due dilligence on these other firms who are all too willing to snipe and grab you for amsong.
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Post by astro50 on Jul 12, 2013 9:22:59 GMT -5
It was a sad day when 395KT was tainted with the new N-number heralding Santo's ego.
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Post by vnr pilot on Jul 12, 2013 10:58:12 GMT -5
Having flown the airplane many times I would recommend anyone who got owns a share of it to run away as fast as possible. That is one of the most beat up airplanes we flew, it usually could not go out more than a day or two without breaking down, make sure you keep a healthy unscheduled maintenance account. And from the looks of it Elite Air is as much of a scumbag operation as avantair was
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Post by flynavy on Jul 12, 2013 11:26:21 GMT -5
This letter, which is not a solicitation for business but a message on behalf of our client, is addressed to the remaining 15 owners of the aircraft.
Sure reads like a solicitation of business. So, what now? If Haslett & Holmes have resigned then what's next? Will the BOD step in and dissolve the company via BK? Since Santo was removed from the day to day operations last fall I can't see anyone leaving him with the keys to the car now.
Any corporate law experts out there with an opinion?
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Post by piaggiolegalrep on Jul 12, 2013 11:44:58 GMT -5
Piaggio,
We do not appreciate your slanderous comments regarding Elite Air. Their clean safety record along with their ARG/US Platinum rating speaks for itself. They would be happy to put their safety record up against anyone in the industry.
We were contacted by an owner of 1/16th share or a former Avantair owner, not Steve Santos, and are interested in helping the other owners get out of this mess.
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Post by They have arrived on Jul 12, 2013 11:51:42 GMT -5
Piaggio, We do not appreciate your slanderous comments regarding Elite Air. Their clean safety record along with their ARG/US Platinum rating speaks for itself. They would be happy to put their safety record up against anyone in the industry. We were contacted by an owner of 1/16th share or a former Avantair owner, not Steve Santos, and are interested in helping the other owners get out of this mess. It was just a matter of time.... First use of the word "slanderous" on this public board. Ladies and gentlemen, let me introduce you to the sharks circling just below your feet. This board is DEAD!
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Post by teterbororams on Jul 12, 2013 14:11:42 GMT -5
we hold a lien on this aircraft.
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Post by pusherprop on Jul 12, 2013 14:16:15 GMT -5
Wait until Godwin's Law is invoked on this board.
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Post by whatwouldherbdo on Jul 12, 2013 14:41:49 GMT -5
Piaggio, We do not appreciate your slanderous comments regarding Elite Air. Their clean safety record along with their ARG/US Platinum rating speaks for itself. They would be happy to put their safety record up against anyone in the industry. We were contacted by an owner of 1/16th share or a former Avantair owner, not Steve Santos, and are interested in helping the other owners get out of this mess. Hello piaggiolegalrep, I believe that those remarks and assertions that were made here regarding Elite Air were mainly due to the pay , Quality of Life, and working conditions currently enjoyed by the pilots of Elite Air and that this was not a direct insult to your firm or maybe even your client. Pilots consider places with low starting pay (with Elite rumored to be under $25,000 per year) to be, by definition, the term "bottom feeder". Pilots often use that term or other terms such as "scumbag operation", "slimy operation", etc. to describe how pilots are treated at those respective airlines, and are not always referring to the ARG/US Platinum or otherwise safety status of that particular operator. For unsafe operators, pilots often use the terms "criminal", "pirate", or "accidents waiting to happen", "134 and a half", etc. I often use the term "South Florida 135", and other pilots usually get my drift. Aviation is a very small world and the number of experienced pilots, especially in the Piaggio, is dwindling. What the word on the street is about a company among networking pilots is usually, not necessarily always, true. I'm sure that the truth will come out here, good or bad, about Elite Air, and to be honest, I hope that it turns out to be a great company for our Owners and all Elite's employees. Unfortunately, Part 135 aviation is rife with "scumbag operators" and an inordinate amount of them are based in South Florida. However, if it is true about their starting pay, I feel that you should advise your client of how this looks to propective owners and employees. With a looming pilot shortage getting worse in August, with new the FAA safety regulation pushed through after the Colgan crash, low paying operators are going to have even a harder time attracting and retaining qualified pilots. Especially in an aircraft as unique as the Piaggio.... My guess is that there are no more than 400 Flight Safety trained current and qualified Piaggio pilots in the US today and there are less every day as our currency lapses. Coming out of a King Air or similar airplane and landing on a short, slick runway and throwing the Piaggio into deep reverse will not work on a Piaggio and will result in a up-close view of the ditch along the runway that you never wanted to see. Our pilots have learned this over the last 10 years flying this unique aircraft. I'm sure that your Law firm's clients know that their attorney was experienced and well-compensated, just as our former owners would like to know that their pilots were not earning what one could make at McDonalds as they were about to takeoff or land at Ocean Reef, Aspen, Telluride, Eagle, Mammoth, etc. Again, I hope that Elite Air can turn out to be a happy lemonade for our former Owners and Employees, and I am sure that our pilots would wish the same. By the way, is there any truth to the above assertion that "N395SS is Mr. Steve Santos personal aircraft (AKA) 17 air LLC. Looks like Steve found his self a new business partner across the field from him. B. Gray Gibbs is the owner of Elite Air."? Thanks.
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Post by Guest number 1 on Jul 12, 2013 15:14:21 GMT -5
The Piaggio is one of the hardest planes to fly while on the ground (takeoff and landing). I would say my flight experience in the piaggio ranks at the top worldwide. Take it from me, pilots need to know what they are doing when flying this bird. Experience matters. Inexperienced pilots will put this thing in the grass eventually. Its the truth. If Avantair had one thing going for them, it was a group of well trained and experienced piaggio pilots. Developed through time from lessons learned.
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Post by 17airllc on Jul 12, 2013 15:19:27 GMT -5
Need to put one rumor to bed. 17 Air, LLC is not the alter ego of SS. Name is derived from the jersey number of a rather prominent MLB player who is my patner in the share. 17airllc
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