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Post by Admin on Jan 6, 2013 20:55:47 GMT -5
My last two experiences with Avantair have been very disappointing. I had scheduled a trip from Austin to Denver for December 26th. Knowing it would be a busy travel day I scheduled well in advance. On the evening of the 25th I contacted owner services via email to confirm a tail number. I was told that they would have something within the next hour. Since I did not see anything by the next morning I again requested a tail number. At 8 am, four hours before our flight was supposed to depart I was told they were looking outside their fleet for other options. At 11 AM I was told there were no other options and they could not tell me when they would be able to provide a flight to Denver either inside or outside the fleet. We scrambled and booked a commercial flight for the five of us and made it to Denver late that night. I was hoping this was a one time problem but was concerned with the way everything was handled. We had a returned flight booked on Saturday January 5th. I wanted to come back Sunday but after the previous experience I felt it necessary to leave a day early in case we had problems. On Friday evening I again pinged Avantair to find out a tail number and was again told I would have one in an hour. All night passed without any communication and I reached out again in the morning to get a tail for a noon departure. Since we were staying two hours from the airport we loaded up the family and headed for the airport still not knowing if we had a plane. On the way to the airport I was told they had found a plane outside the fleet, a King Air 350, to take us back to Austin. I was of course not pleased as the King Air is not exactly an equivalent plane. Fortunately the flight from Denver to Austin is with the prevailing wind. Also they requested that we go to a different airport to meet the plane. I have now lost confidence in Avantair's ability to run their basic business. While they claim to have 50 planes the most I ever see in the air at one time is roughly a dozen. I am now worried that they will not be able to continue operations and the owners will be left in a tough situation. I hope this board will give us a way to work together to preserve our financial interests.
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wpc
New Member
Posts: 7
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Post by wpc on Jan 16, 2013 18:43:30 GMT -5
Great idea to start this message board. I too was frustrated with the pathetic communication during the fleet grounding. Email updates from Steve Santo were deceptive if not downright deceitful. Absolutely no feedback on the financial condition of the company, other than a desparate plea to invest in their convertible note offering. We already succumbed to the hard sell by renewing our management contract just before the grounding, AND prepaying one year's management fee to get a free month. Our investment in the aircraft will have value, but i worry the prepaid fee is toast.
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bdf
New Member
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Post by bdf on Jan 16, 2013 19:31:37 GMT -5
Forum is a terrific idea and very much needed.
Similar to two other posts, Avantair completely botched Thanksgiving travel, forcing me to cancel and replace with commercial flights the day of travel. Also, it was five hours late on one of two Christmas/New Year trips. Similar to another post, I suspect that Avantair has many fewer planes ready to fly than indicated. It looks like it is eliminating more planes from the fleet than even the non-renewal of original five year fractional interest agreements. The reduction in fleet is indicated by management to save costs but at the same time reduces the number of planes ready to meet our flight requests.
I had a similar experience being induced to renew my five year agreement last August. I was not made aware of the July major maintenace issue and FAA investigation. Plus, Avantair raised monthly fees by about 30% for my two-year renewal. I feel really dumb renewing, by the way, but did in part feeling my residual value in the 1/16 interest was worthless as of August and hoped Avantair would turn things around..
A key will be whether the company can complete the $8 to $10 MM convertible note deal, scheduled to close about now. Not great odds of success.
Perhaps the best thing that could happen is a financially strong company takes Avantair over.
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Post by hrofcr on Jan 16, 2013 19:39:07 GMT -5
I won't go into the October/November stand down, other than to say we had a flight planned for October 25 (SLC to SAF), with a return on October 31. They called the night before, the 24th, and told us they would not be able to fly us, and about the stand down. We totally rearranged our schedule in Santa Fe, putting all the appointments off until November. For the November trip, since the fleet was still grounded, we used other general aviation options. On December 5, after the fleet appeared to have been mostly cleared, we called for reservations for December 20, specifically because it was a non-peak day, with a return on December 29, again specifically selected because it was a non-peak day. We received the itineraries later on the 5th by email. On the night of the 19th, they called with the tail number, but told us there would be a 2.5 to 3 hour delay getting the plane into SLC. I simply told them "That is unacceptable.", and made other arrangements for both the outward-bound flight and the return flight, at considerable additional expense.
All the Avantair-related P180s carry tail numbers beginning with "N" (all US-registered planes start with the N) and ending with "SL", EXCEPT one - N395SS. The company claims to have a fleet of 57 aircraft, and I have been able to piece together a listing of what I believe to be most of those tail numbers: 102, 103, 104, 105, 106, 107, 108, 109, 130, 131, 132, 134, 136, 137, 138, 139, 140, 143, 145, 146, 147, 149, 150, 153, 156, 157, 158, 159, 160, 161, 162, 163, 164, 165, 167, 168, 169, 172, 173, 175, 176, 178, 179, 180, 183, 184, 187, 188, 189, 191, 192, 194, 195, 196, and 197. There is also N301SL, which is registered to another company in Clearwater, which has some affiliation with Avantair, and it has appeared to be flying similarly to the Avantair fleet.
Of the above tail numbers: N168SL has not flown since it skidded off the runway in MI last July, and flipped onto its back; N169SL flew until November 26, 2012, but has not flown since then; N131SL, N146SL, and N197SL did not fly after the stand down until January 5, 2013, December 11, 2012, and January 11, 2013, respectively. Tail numbers 103, 130,136, 137, 147, 149, 153, 162, 173, and 180 HAVE NOT FLOWN SINCE THE STAND DOWN! This reduces their available fleet by some 20%. The company has not admitted that less than the entire fleet is flying. I do not know whether these planes are not flying because they don't have pilots, the planes have not been mechanically cleared for resuming flight, or for other reasons.
It would be interesting if each of the people joining this blog were to disclose their status with Avantair, such as owners, card members, etc. We are owners, having bought in 2008.
If you haven't discovered flight aware.com, take a look at it. On the left side, you can enter a tail number and get its current activity. For Avantair flights, use VNR, followed by the three-digit tail number, omitting the SL designation. Flightaware is how I have compiled the planes that are and are not flying.
Also, there is a secondary market for fractional interests, outside Avantair. Fractrade.com has at least 27 fractional, P180 interests for sale, all of which are managed by Avantair. Fractional interests in other planes/management companies are substantially fewer.
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Post by hrofcr on Jan 16, 2013 19:45:48 GMT -5
Primarily for "wpc", but also for those who do not know - Avantair is publicly traded, OTC, symbol AAIR. Their 10Ks are available online. They have not made a profit since their inception. The stock was trading at +/- $7 per share when we bought our fractional interest; now trading at less than $1 per share - I haven't checked lately.
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Post by Admin on Jan 16, 2013 20:33:47 GMT -5
I want to thank everyone for the informative posts, this is exactly what I hoped would happen. I realize that some people may have been suspicious of the original email because it was not obvious that if you clicked on my name you could see my LinkedIn profile. Here it is in case anyone cares www.linkedin.com/in/joeltrammell/ I am a fractional owner with Avantair but am coming up on my 5 year renewal. I love the plane so much that I want Avantair to succeed or find a buyer who can properly resource the effort. Thanks again for the posts and hopefully we can build an active user community here. Please share your flight experiences both positive and negative.
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theoe
New Member
Posts: 9
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Post by theoe on Jan 16, 2013 22:00:51 GMT -5
This is a great idea. I have bern an owner since 2005. I think we as owners need to keep communicating with each other on the real problems we all face. Clint Allen and his newsletter was and is inaccurate on the service we receive. I was left with 10 hours notice in October as well and told they would not honor chattering an aircraft. Flight Options jumped in and was great. The real question is will Avantair stay in business as I prepaid my contract.
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Post by dazedandconfused on Jan 16, 2013 22:19:52 GMT -5
My understanding is that less than 25 planes are even active at this time. It is absurd that Santos has not disclosed the fact that the fleet is mostly grounded. They continually fail to provide on-time scheduling and do not tell the truth when asked why things are as they are. The pilots tend to be the most honest as it appears they are treated as poorly as us.
BTW, does anybody wonder where the money went to add internet to the fleet? Awfully convenient for Santos to mandate the assessment and then only install on one plane. He needs to be confronted as well as the board of directors. It's time for honesty or a new CEO.
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Post by jackmoore0 on Jan 16, 2013 22:28:34 GMT -5
I have been a very satisfied customer over the last three years until they grounded their fleet. Fortunately for me I had a NetJets back up. In fact I have purchased an ownership in an Embraer Phenom 300, due in June. My last 6 AvantAir fligfhts have been over 4 hours late; one exceeding 24 hours. I am concerned about the survival of the company; even though they had a great product.
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pintom
Junior Member
Posts: 71
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Post by pintom on Jan 17, 2013 2:12:28 GMT -5
I've been a fractional owner since 2005, and like many, I love the plane and until recently also the service. With the normal occasional exceptions, I've gotten great service over the past eight years. But since the stand down, it's been terrible. I've taken nine flights since then, and seven of them have been disrupted in one way or another. The most minor being a ninety-minute "schedule change" delay, and the most major being a six-hour delay because of mechanical #1, followed by an in-flight overnight diversion to SLC (flying from CA to CO) because of mechanical #2. I so want the company to succeed, but I'm baffled by how that will happen at the current pace. I have most recently called Steve Santo four times and still not even the courtesy of a return call. The line folks seem quite weary, undoubtedly getting the repeated brunt of owner frustration. This dialogue is a great idea, and I'm hopeful that things will improve (tomorrow's flight home from Cabo is still on time!), but thus far I have no real reason to be hopeful. Just wishful optimism at this point.
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Post by timdanis on Jan 17, 2013 9:05:27 GMT -5
wonderful idea; maybe these guys will be more accountable and forth coming. Steve Santo should be replaced
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Post by tmcgowan on Jan 17, 2013 11:38:15 GMT -5
I am an fractional owner of 100 hours nearing the end of my contract. Every flight since the grounding has been dismall at best. Yesterday I was left stranded at SNA and ended up on Southwest. The companies response to all things is to give away "free" hours. Doesn't this approach just put more hours on our assets, making the planes worth less at sale? They seem to want to give everybody hours for any reason, as it really doesn't cost them anything...just you and I. I would appreciate others thoughts.
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Post by tomcat on Jan 17, 2013 13:14:12 GMT -5
THANK YOU for making this post-we need it as owners. I hope they get their act together-great idea-and for the first 6 years very good! As others have mentioned-since the stand down-nothing but delays and lousy service. They need to wake up-soon.
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Post by johnhmorris on Jan 17, 2013 18:50:13 GMT -5
I echo the thanks for putting together this forum. My experience has been much the same. I personally have enjoyed excellent service until the "voluntary" stand own. On December 7, I booked and confirmed a flight from KTRM (Thermal, CA) to Sun Valley leaving on December 16 and returning on January 2nd. The outbound flight was close to on time but they claimed they couldn't get us into Sun Valley because of winds. They dropped us off in Twin Falls where we rented a car. The return flight was a disaster. We were 33.5 hours late and also had to drive to Twin as is was getting dark in Sun Valley. However, the FBO was expecting incoming flights until 8:00PM. It was 5:30PM when we were told they would not fly in. The first day it was suggested that we fly commercial. The first flight out was with available seats was in three days and was from Boise, a 4+ hour drive. We were told that they would not charter a plane for us, despite that option being a contractural obligation. During the entire episode Owner Sevices personnel were nice but demoralized. When we did fly out, the pilots were obviously unhappy.
I don't believe this management is capable of running this company.
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Post by hrofcr on Jan 17, 2013 19:24:39 GMT -5
Update - N149SL, which last flew into Birmingham, AL, on October 25, flew today "home" to Clearwater, FL. Don't know yet whether it is returning to full service. That still leaves about 20% of the fleet grounded.
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